I think both of you are credited as “Sword Technical Advisors” for HOOK, so could you possibly tell us what exactly you did on this movie and, also, how you got the job?
For the movie HOOK, Jan and I taught Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams the specialized swordfighting style they performed and choreographed all of their fight scenes. We also taught the same things to their stunt doubles and trained Dante Basco (Rufio) for his fight.
We trained over 200 stunt people in “rough and ready” cutlass fighting, taught all the actors playing the “Lost Boys” and choreographed lots of fight sequences that got filmed, some of which made the final cut – that’s show biz.
Ordinarily, what we did is called either “Sword Master” or “Fight Choreographer”. We don’t know why they called us “Sword Technical Advisors”, which is quite an odd credit, and we haven’t been called by that title since. Possibly they used that title because we had a team of people working with us (Ted Katzoff was only one of them), but we never found out for sure.
Whatever the reason, HOOK was a wonderful experience and led to many other opportunities in the filmworld.
We got the job on HOOK because we had been getting a reputation for doing new and exciting swordwork in movies, and that is exactly what stunt coordinator Gary Hymes was looking for. He searched us out at a fencing studio in Los Angeles, where we were teaching a program in theatrical swordfighting, interviewed us for the job and decided to form a team with us at its core.
The rest is history.
How much time did you have (before principal photography began) to train the artists? Did anyone among them have any prior fencing or theatrical fencing experience? And could you please elaborate on the specialized swordfighting styles you and Jan taught Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams?
We only had a couple weeks before we began shooting for training, but the big battle didn’t occur until near the end of the filming, so we got a lot of time on set and even after hours. Everybody was very dedicated and put in a lot of extra time.
Both actors (Dustin and Robin) had some experience with swordfighting and performing action, but our training is intensive and gave them a base to develop real sword skills – in a theatrical sense.
Because Dustin as Capt. Hook was something of an idealized figure from the Golden Age of Piracy (early seventeen hundreds) we gave him the look of classical French smallsword from that time – elegant and with correct footwork. Robin as Pan had a big dagger – basically a short sword – so we gave him a more rough and tumble knife fighting look. Then we added in some old movie style swashbuckling for both of them so they could match up moves with two such mis-matched weapons. That gave the basic look for the fights, which then allowed the stunt coordinator to plot how the fights should flow, add gymnastics and set the scenes up for Steven Spielberg to shoot.
You mentioned filmed fight scenes that did not make it into the final cut. Could you please elaborate on that too? (There will be a whole section on our fan site dedicated to the HOOK deleted scenes, so we are very much interested in this subject!) Wasn’t the final sword fight between Hook/Hoffman and Pan/Williams originally much more longer, for instance?
Wow, you really did your research!
Yes, the Hook vs. Pan fight was originally MUCH longer. We shot entire sequences showing the skill those two actors had developed. There was even a scene where Pan deflected Hook’s attacks while drinking out of a mug and not looking.
Problem was, while some of those scenes are brilliant displays of swordsmanship, they don’t advance the story. Steven Spielberg is a MASTER storyteller, and one of the best movie makers of all time, so he obviously trimmed what wasn’t really appropriate for the final cut. This is very common in big films, where the director gives himself some options to change subtle nuances in the editing room. We, of course, had nothing to do with the editing, and wouldn’t have had the expertise necessary to do what an incredible director like Spielbeg can do.
As to the other fights, anytime you shoot a big battle there’s quite a lot of good sequences that don’t make the final cut. Again, it can be a question of advancing the story, or merely to fit the movie into a time frame for viewing in the cinemas. That’s why the new special features and director’s cuts on DVDs are so exciting, because you can see a film without the constraints of a time limit, and sometimes see entire scenes that would have been lost in traditional movie production.
The only sequence I was disappointed in not seeing in the movie was a synchronized cutlass drill involving 80 people moving in rhythm. At one point Hook marches right through the middle of the drill, with cutlasses flashing on either side of his head and not a one touching him. We had worked very hard on it and shooting it was quite exciting. Oh, well, maybe we can put it in another film…
I think we have a photo from that deleted scene! Didn’t Hook kill one of his men at the end of this scene, one that wasn’t doing the drill exactly as told, and Hook gave the dying pirate a last fencing tip, or something (supposed to be) funny like that? Maybe something you would have liked to do yourself to some of your less talented students in your darkest dreams?
That’s the sequence in the photo all right. That’s me standing on the gangplank calling it out. And Hook was supposed to kill one of his men at the end of it, but as I recall that idea got scrapped and I don’t think we ever filmed any of the test pieces. The writer (James V. Hart) may even have taken it out, but as with the previous question, I really don’t remember how it was eliminated, just that it went. And of course, I never feel like stabbing any of my students…
Wasn’t there also a filmed (but later cut) scene involving a white tablecloth/sheet that Pan took from a washing/clothes line and used it to tease Hook as a matador would do with a bull, or something like that?
Jan and I don’t remember any specific fight involving a cloth and Pan acting like a matador, but we did play around with a lot of different things. Sounds more like some of the things with the Lost Boys and the pirates.
This kind of use of specific movie set props during/within the sword fight (like the mug), is this something that is usually planned very early on, taken verbatim from the script and considered/dealt with during the pre-production training, or is this rather what one should call “later additions” to the fight choreography, ideas that only come to life when rehearsing on “location”, once the sets are built?
The only answer to this is all of the above. There’s things in the script, there’s stuff that comes up during training, there’s stuff that gets created on the set – I can’t even remember what was what. Sometimes ideas get knocked around over lunch or drinks and get written in, etc., etc. Sorry, but that’s as good as I can come up with.
You said you added in “some old movie style swashbuckling” when developping the fighting styles… We all know that Spielberg is a film buff, so I was wondering: do you remember including into your choreographies specific moves or actions taken from oldtime swashbuckler films he had particulary liked? I mean, the shot of the giant shadows of the swordfighters on the wall, for example, is an obvious homage to Michael Curtiz’s THE ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD (or DON JUAN)… But were there movie references incorporated into the sword choreography itself?
Thing is, there wasn’t anything as specific as what you are looking for. There was just a general feeling of paying our respects to the old films, so naturally you have to have shadows on a wall, and the hero being heroic and returning a dropped sword, and the bad guy cheating, etc. We even did a version of the old cutting-the-candle bit that didn’t make the movie. The thing with Pan drinking and swordfighting at the same time was something of an homage to Danny Kaye and Basil Rathbone in THE COURT JESTER, so that’s probably the closest. I don’t recall who came up with it, and of course, it isn’t in the movie…
When was the cutting-the-candle bit occurring? (and which character was doing it?)
The “old candle cutting bit” took place during the big Hook vs. Pan fight, and was supposed to fit in around the same time as the drinking while fighting bit – Hook trying to show off, Pan getting the upper hand. As near as Jan and I remember, Hook took a swipe at a lit candelabra, and the force of his blow was so strong it snuffed all the candles. Pan then swipes at the same candelabra, and the force of his energy re-ignites the candles. It was a troublesome shot, as the FX tech was lighting the candles live with a short series of switches to match Pan’s timing. Very difficult, but we did get it eventually. It, like the drinking shot, would not really have fit in with how the fight was finally edited.
Do you remember if any parts of the sword fight choreographies were discarded before principal photography? I know, for example, that in some very early version of the script, the final duel was supposed to take place onboard a burning “Jolly Roger”… Also, the screenplay was constantly rewritten during the shooting: from your perspective, did that have any impact on the (staging of the) fight scenes?
There are ALWAYS ideas that get discarded for one reason or another. We just try to roll with what happens, and often it works out better as we can modify what we’ve worked on. That’s why we stress a foundation in technique with actors before we get to actually choreographing the sequences, because with a good foundation they can work with us changing things around. We remember the fire sequence from the original script, it was written out early on and didn’t affect us in any way. One thing that did affect us was an actor being written into a fight with Pan at the last minute and us having not worked with him at all. It’s the scene where Pan rescues his daughter – there wasn’t supposed to be a fight, and the actor had been on set for a while but we thought (and we’d been told) there was no need to train him. So, we get handed a completely new scene with a fight in it. I was working on a stunt sequence, fortunately Jan is incredible at finding people’s strengths and working them up quickly. I think she had around an hour and a half before the fight went in front of the camera, and it looks good – Pan is clearly the superior fighter, and ends up pinning the other character beneath a statue. In this business, you roll with the punches and the pages!
I see on your website that Dan’s brother, Dave, was one of the pirates. Do you recall other uncredited “appearances” by members of the crew and/or one of their relatives? Also, I read that a lot of famous people and movie stars came to visit the sets, and some of them allegedly can be spotted in the movie, dressed as pirates (but as many scenes were deleted, I guess some of these “cameos” did not make it to the final cut…). Again, do you remember any names? (other than Glenn Close, Phil Collins and David Crosby, I mean)
A lot of people including stars and their families came by and visited the set, as it was amazing – one of the biggest and most lavish constructions Holywood had seen at the time. Almost all of them signed the guestbook, which was printed up and given to cast and crew as a memento. As far as I know, no stars other than the ones everyone knows about did a cameo, but rumors persist. My brother Dave was working on the film, as both a background pirate and as an assistant sword trainer. He didn’t get a credit, but then, getting credit for your work even today is a tough job.
I keep hearing rumors about cameos by Bruce Willis, Quincy Jones, Michael Jackson and… Spielberg himself? Any plausibility to those rumors? (I mean, did anyone of them signed the guestbook, for instance?)
Those are all just rumors, to the best of my knowledge completely unfounded, and I was there every day during those huge crowd scenes and battles. Even people visiting and signing the guestbook doesn’t mean they are in the movie, just that they came by the set. It’s a big deal to get someone in wardrobe and makeup and find a place in a shot for them to be.
I was wondering: was Captain Hook’s actual hook (I mean, the prop) a blessing or a curse for you, when designing the sword fights? Did you have trouble to incorporate it into the choreography? Was it troublesome in any way for the actors and/or their stunt doubles when rehearsing the fights, or filming? (I heard the hook was re-done/re-built several times, because of size problems, if I remember correctly…?)
The Hook was fabulous, and rather than being a problem to work with was a fun challenge. It went back and forth a few times to get the size and design approved, for us to play with some mockups, for the armorer to try some different techniques in securing the hook to the socket and to work with some of the things they wanted to slot into it, like the ice cream spoon. That’s just normal on a big film, where you have the time – and money – to create a specialty prop that is integral to the story. After all, the movie is called “Hook” not “Pan,” or “Sword” or “Lightbulb.”
For more info on the Hook, you should check out swordandstone.com, where our armorer friend Tony Swatton has his website. He made the Hook, and has one of the actual ones from the movie on display in his shop in Burbank, California. He’s made lots of weapons for us over the years, and we had worked with him many times even before “Hook.”
One last question: I clearly remember reading in the trades that Lisa Bonet was hired to play the part of Tiger Lily, she was supposed to shoot her scenes at the end of May 1991. But, obviously, she did not appear in the final cut. And neither did any other “Red Skin” character…
Sorry, but I really don’t know anything about any of that. Probably one of those ideas that never got past the planning stages.